I thought this answer was respectful, yet very honest, regarding some of the leaders within the Emergent Church. More then anything, I appreciate Mark Driscoll's wisdom of knowing the truth of Scripture before we start reading books about Scripture.
13 comments:
First off, I dig his shirt. Jesus getting funky on the turn tables is sweet.
But, most importantly I like what he has to say about the Bible. I am completely guilty of reading a ton of books about scripture, from all types of writers, yet neglecting to actually read the words that come directly from the mouth of God. This has confused me many times on many different issues. I respect what he says. Thanks.
Nice link. He usually has solid points.
I also like his phrasing of the "pajamajadin bloggers".
Saw Mark Driscoll once when he came downunder here to Aus and i really appreciated his honesty and bluntness. I guess because at times i am quite the same. I think that we can learn from him..like he said he is good friends with people such as 'Bell' etc and he openly tells him he does not like their ideas and doesn't agree. We can learn from this as some of our closest friends who love Jesus really lack in some areas(not that i am perfect or anything)..i think we need to be more open and honest to our friends about what we believe and encourage them to be reading the word more and finding out who God really is and what he really wants. (i had so much to say and on my mind right then and i think it came out totally wrong but i know what i am trying to say and i am hoping you do to). Linda, Downunder!
As far as reading the bible first and understanding what it says before diving into other commentaries and other authors...RIGHT ON! You've got to know the original before you can spot a counterfeit, i learned from my Civics teacher in High School...though he was talking about money i think it applies also to the bible.
The thing i don't get is his beef with Rob Bell. Maybe because i don't follow this guy i don't what he is referring to when he says "...Bell and McClearn need to repent of their lack of emphasis of what the bible emphasizes..." (loosely paraphrased). I saw Rob Bell's response and also thought it was very respectful and very honest. I guess i'm fuzzy as to what the issue he's got with him at least. I know your post wasn't to bring up this subject as much as it was to point out the idea of reading the bible before reading other books...even Systematic Theology, Luther, Calvin ect ;-) Those are what the Christian education would have you read first haha
Anyhow here's the video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIKkvmSNUCY&feature=player_embedded
His beef with Bell is that he calls into question doctrine that is pretty straight forward in scripture. And though, Bell tends to come out later and say he doesn't necessary believe the things he is calling into question, (ie the Virgin Birth, Literal Hell, etc.) I find him opening more doors then closing. An example of this is seen in this interview, specifically in the question regarding Hell.
http://www.theooze.com/articles/article.cfm?id=1762
If you read through the comments, the guy who wrote the article said Bell later on acknowledged a literal hell. Why dance around the subject? Why bring more things into question then actually provide answers?
In Titus 2:1 it says "But as for you, teach what accords with sound doctrine."
I do believe that Bell needs to teach more sound doctrine, rather then questioning it. All this to be said, I do believe Bell is a believer. But, I do disagree with quite a few of his statements and methodologies.
Thanks for the clarification. I read the article and it seems very clear to me what he was saying. I think people just want something to argue over all the time. People would much rather discuss predestination over free-will than actually love their enemy and bless instead of curse. He say it very clearly in the follow-up question about wouldn't you want to save people from that literal hell now?! It should drive us to be more loving not more condemning.
As far as, "Why bring more things into question then actually provide answers? " I think that's a very biblical, Jesus thing to do. Jesus very rarely answers the "Religious Elect" with a straight answer...in fact he almost always answers the question with a question which exposes their lack of faith in God, their misunderstanding of representing the orphaned, the widowed and outcast among them. So you can have very sound doctrine and still ask questions to the those who claim Christ as Saviour. The question wasn't focused for the non-believer but for the believer so it makes sense he'd answer it in a way the believer would want to check their doctrine with their action.
As for his methodologies I wonder what you mean too as well as the guy in the video. I don't agree with all of his statements either but i watch some videos that were linked to this one on YouTube that said how Rob Bell was heretical and anti-christian when really they just mean he's got a liberal view on certain things non of which are on essentials but on non-essentials that can be debated in the realm of orthodoxy.
Thanks for the post and thought provoking video.
His Peace to you!
Mark,
Some Questions...
Do you believe there is such a thing as Sound Doctrine?
If so, where do we find Jesus calling into question that Sound Doctrine?
You have now referred to reformed Theologians or mentioned the argument of Free Will vs. Predestination twice. I am curious as to why you would bring that up, when nowhere in my response was this mentioned?
Yes Scott, I believe in sound doctrine. I understand that whenever i write in response to your blog something makes you think i'm giving issue to what you've said or posted. For that i'm sorry. I think it gets in the way of what i've actually written. That and the fact that it's really hard to convey emotion through blog-space, but in ALL honesty i've meant no malice or ill will of you. The things i posted were questions about where the guy in the video, Mark Driscall?, is coming from. Then from there there were links to why Rob Bell is a heretic and why Billy Graham's son is the devil too! Just crazyness on the web.
As far as examples of Jesus calling into question sound doctrine there are plenty. When He and His disciples werepicking food on the Sabbath (work on the most holy day of rest) the teachers of the law, the preachers and teachers, the most religious of His day (at least in the eyes of the people and the eyes of the teachers of the Law), they asked Jesus, "don't you know what they are doing is unlawful on the Sabbath?" Jesus answers their question with a question. (mark 2:23-27) "Did you read when David and companions ate the consecrated bread that was only fit for the priests?" Or how about right after that when the chief priests and Pharisees asked him about fasting and why he didn't...He again answered with a question "How can the guests of the bride-groom mourn while he is still with them? Do you put new wine into old wine skins?"
"What about healing on the Sabbath? is that lawful since it's work?" They asked He answers "Do you pull your sheep out of the pit when they fall in it on the Sabbath? How much more valuable is man than a sheep?"
He questions the religious "sound doctrine" of His day. Saying how they've missed the point about keep law rather helping or saving their fellow man. They were very interested in putting a heavy yoke around the neck of their followers, while Jesus says clearly, "my yoke is easy and burden is light...take my yoke upon you and learn from me." So, I see some of the same things here and on the other videos following that one (not the ones you've posted). It seems they are so ready to nail another person to the cross for their lack of sound doctrine but i wonder if the intellectual and well read of our day are really the closest to God...that sounds more Gnostic than Christian. Again this isn't from what you've posted but from the others that are somehow connected to this video.
Now, as far as me mentioning Luther, Calvin, Grudem(systematic theology) and free-will vs predestination if you would try to reread it with out malice intent you'd see that i was pointing out things people can disagree about and still be within the pale of Orthodoxy (Right Doctrine) and how the majority of Christians want to argue the non-essentials rather than follow through on their doctrine with action, like loving your enemy etc... If you are thinking i'm pointing a finger at you it's merely because i'm pointing at all of us, me as well. Humans fail which is why we need a Savior and Grace, this you already know. Having said that I just want to say that people can disagree and still hold to sound doctrine. Also since both of us went through the same schooling at biola you'd remember that they'd rather us learn the aforementioned books before reading the bible as a whole which is why i thought it'd be funny to mention but i realize now this is a sensitive topic and will do my best to not mention it again.
Again thanks for clearing up the issue with Mark Driscoll and Rob Bell. Hopefully all us Christians can learn more everyday how to be more Christ-like living up to our name Christian (little-Christs).
Hope that helps with the questions. If you have more let me know. Always good discussion we have...sorry if by having them they make you upset.
His Peace
I liked the comment he said that "readers and leaders tend to be the same thing" I think I will make that into a poster and put it in my classroom next to the other poster that says "read it's what smart people do." Hopefully it will be motivational because we all know how useful posters in teachers classrooms are, especially posters with puppies, kittens, eagles or garfield.
I do think it is easier to read a book about the bible then to delve into the bible for reasons Mark mentions like Jesus' socratic approach to answering questions with questions. But I rather think I do myself a disservice by being lazy and relying on others words and not primarily the word of God. I would be interested to hear more of this particular speaker.
Let me start off apologizing if my questions seemed to come off as if I read malice in your first comment. If my response came off harsh I do truly apologize.
In regards to the questioning by Jesus, I want to clarify what I am not saying.
I am not saying that Jesus never asked questions, Nor am I saying that Jesus never used questions to teach. I am also not saying that Jesus did not question doctrine of his day.
However, I am saying that Jesus did not question Sound Doctrine. Though, the Pharisees had an understanding of “Sound Doctrine”, Jesus questioned their doctrine because their understanding was wrong. If this is the case then it was not “Sound Doctrine”. Questions we don’t see Jesus asking is…
“Was Israel really enslaved by Egypt?”
“Did God really make a covenant with Abraham?”
“Did Eve really eat of the fruit from the knowledge of Good and Evil?”
When Rob Bell questions things such as a Virgin Birth or a literal Hell, I believe they fall more closely under the lines of these questions. That is not say that these things can never be questioned, however I do believe he opens more doors regarding Sound Doctrine then he does closing them. In my opinion this is at the very heart of Gnosticism and Dualism; to elevate ones spiritual experience by questioning truth for the sake of finding a new meaning or new truth. I believe this is what we see in Corinth when Paul is so heavily defending the physical resurrection and why John has such a heavy emphasis on the deity and personhood of Christ. Obviously scripture does not tell us how these false doctrines came into place, but my guess is that someone opened the door by questioning the physical resurrection or someone questioned whether or not Jesus was fully God or fully man and then never closed the door behind them. This left people to go on their own rabbit trails of what they believe about God. Paul and John then come in and close the door to stop these false doctrines.
Rob Bell is a very influential Pastor and author, he has had millions of people read his book and hear him speak. My biggest beef is that he does not always close doors behind his questioning. I think this is dangerous, for the regular person that does not know scripture as well as you or I.
Lastly, I think it is important to clarify a difference between nonessentials and doctrine. Many people confuse the two. Some people have drawn their line on nonessentials, rather on doctrine, and because of that have become legalists. I believe this is what we see with the Pharisees. (Ironically nonessentials have become their doctrine and therefore it is a false doctrine) The extreme other side says, doctrine does not matter all we need to do is act like Jesus and love. (Ironically this is their doctrine and it also is a false doctrine) The result of this is a movement that is grounded in shifting sand and begins to look no different then a good moral teaching such as Oprah or Dr. Phil. I truly believe our doctrine drives what we do. Because, of this I believe it is of utmost importance that our doctrine is right. Which is why I originally liked this video, because I think Driscol nailed it on the head when he said that we need to know scripture first and foremost, while raising problems he has with some of the doctrine of other brothers in Christ.
P.S.
As for the other videos on youtube, I agree people are crazy. Unfortunatly, anyone can make a video and depending on what you label the video, will depend on what it links to.
mark and scott- well said on both sides. I find myself agreeing with both of you said.
I actually love Rob Bell for some things he has done and for the people that he has reached that others never would have reached. But I also have problems with his teaching from time to time and have even found some historical errors in his messages. He especially needs to work on his Hebrew pronunciations. But all in all, I respect him for pushing the limits of American Evangelical Christianity and am grateful to his ministry.
I like the comment Mark made about his Civics’ teacher in High school, “You've got to know the original before you can spot a counterfeit”.
I’ve heard Greg Laurie also tell a similar story about knowing the difference between real money and counterfeit. The people who work for the US treasury are trained to know what real currency looks and feels like, so that when a counterfeit comes along they are able to spot it, because they know the real thing so well.
The point he makes is by knowing the bible you’ll know when something is false.
I agree with Mark Driscoll and Mark’s high school civics’ teacher…
“You've got to know the original before you can spot a counterfeit”.
http://christianresearchnetwork.com/?p=10977
I found this interesting....
Post a Comment