-Dan Mtzat-
It’s amazing how a small shift in perspective can change our entire outlook on self and the cross. To think that Christ died because of our innate self worth is abhorrent. Left to himself, man is a repugnant, egotistical, traitor that celebrates his treason against God. The Cross was the capstone of this disloyalty. It is also the one and only act that enables man to mourn over his betrayal and rejoice in the grace of God. If man has worth it is only because the Cross has applied it, and if this is the case it can hardly be called self worth.
It’s amazing how a small shift in perspective can change our entire outlook on self and the cross. To think that Christ died because of our innate self worth is abhorrent. Left to himself, man is a repugnant, egotistical, traitor that celebrates his treason against God. The Cross was the capstone of this disloyalty. It is also the one and only act that enables man to mourn over his betrayal and rejoice in the grace of God. If man has worth it is only because the Cross has applied it, and if this is the case it can hardly be called self worth.
7 comments:
This paragraph hit me especially hard when I read it. I can't remember which book it was in (either "The Cross Centered Life", or "How Do I Change?")... but it sent a powerful message to me. Every white lie, every time I disobeyed my mother, every ounce of envy and lust and pride and greed, every sin I've ever done, big or small... they all sent Jesus to the Cross. He died to save me... imagine the pain of saving billions ... it's intense.
Hey Scott, LONG time no see.
I'm STOKED you have a blog. It's good to see where your mind and heart is at.
I agree with you that the sole purpose of it all was in fact His abundant grace. But you can't minimize the fact that there is a "worth" dynamic to why we even exist. If you look at the parable of the pearl collector, John 17 and the descriptive details of Christ when he returns, there is clearly a passion within Christ for us that gives us worth. His vengeance seen in the book of Revelation clearly establishes that not only God never changes, and that He really IS gracious, He also as Jesus said in John 17. that the Father loves us as He loves Jesus.
Clearly if the Father loves us as He loves Jesus... there is worth beyond our comprehension that exists in the heart of God, which should therefore give us an idenity in His love for us, not just his mercy for our injustices to Him.
The first quote i felt as if the point were
1) Christ died and we should be sad (or weep) for his sacrifice
despite other saints and fellow workers going before us and calling the day Christ died in our place "Good Friday" not sad, depressing, weepy friday. Of course I, like many others have often wondered why would one call the day The LORD of all was sentenced to death for being sinless, GOOD? Then it was explained He had no sin became sin for us...Those are Paul's words...so that we MIGHT become His Righteousness Also the Apostle Paul's words. Therefore we should be joyful, no not in our own accomplishments but those of the selfless acts of our Creator taking on death in our place! I'm not saying a mourning shouldn't ever take place, just that it should never be our final resting point as this quote from Dan M. seems to make. I don't think we need to feel good about ourselves, but good that God still sees His kids as worth, "the greatest sacrifice, the supreme effort, the ultimate gift..." and celebrate that!!
2) "To think Christ died for our innate self worth is abhorrent".
This makes me think you don't know where we (You, me and everyone) derive our self worth from in the first place. "People matter, men women and children..." because we have the image of the Eternal within our very members!! I agree people miss this waaaay too often, but it doesn't nullify the truth! Within every single person ever born since Adam we were made in God's likeness, His Image! This has been on the forefront: of every Hospital started by Christians (which most have been), of countless human and civil rights movements... that is because people have been made in the image of their creator they are not disposable , that's why abortion is wrong, there is a life being destroyed a life that still has the fingerprints of God. That's where our "innate self worth" comes from but to say it could "hardly be called such" would be the same as saying God really didn't give anyone any. True everything IS His...but we are called stewards, overseers, even shepherds which suggest possession of it, whether the "it" is a group of people, a house, money or even our own bodies. They are ours, through His Hands. Just like the parable of the Talents the King still hands out all the Talents to the men to be their possession, of course the one at the end who does nothing with his gets it taken away and the man with a bunch gets one more. Even in this parable we see how the king still owns the Talents, but leaves it in the people's hands to grow or not grow the investment. We then can't stand on the ground that we have no worth, for then we've denied God's attributes in us and even within the non-believer, for His invisible qualities and divine attributes are being revealed to all, even those perishing in their own rejection of the Holy One. If man's worth is only in that Christ died on a cross, then those before the cross were of no value, which i can't believe. Christ died so that none would perish, even though many will, but they didn't have to. So, they can take pride in themselves in so far as God is the one who gives worth. We are of value in so much as God is, because we bear His marks, but He's the Original and therefore of waaay more value, but we are His creation non-the-less so we retain our value and worth because of that fact!
Mark,
I really feel you are missing the point. His argument is against a "me" centered gospel, not about people living in a constant state of depression. He even says,
"…it most certainly would not have been because the person was so valuable, but because God was so gracious"
I agree mourning is not our final resting place, but we cannot get to the celebration until we are fully aware of why the sacrifice took place, which is our wretched sin!
But this is still not his point. His point is that we love to put ourselves in the center, because we think we have "earned" or "deserve" some kind of worth. We have done nothing to earn our worth and any worth that we have tried to earn on our own (aka self worth) is, and I will say it again, absolutely abhorrent. Yes, man has worth from being created in the image of God. Never once have I said otherwise! However, that worth is completely tainted because of sin.
What is the worth of something that cannot perform the task for which it was created for? As we mentioned humans were created in the image of God. What does this mean? It means we can think and learn, process information and make plans. It also means that we have an understanding of morality and we have a sense of right from wrong. Plus, we have a soul that will last for the rest of eternity. However, the biggest thing that sets us apart from the rest of creation is the ability to purposefully glorify God through worship. Animals, trees, mountains, and galaxies all glorify God, but they do so indirectly. Humans were the only part of God’s creation with the ability to purposefully worship him. Sin, halted that ability. After sin man still had the image of God, but the very thing he was created for, glorifying God, he could no longer do purposefully. Again, I ask what is the worth of something that cannot perform the task for which it was created for?
In Rom.3:12 Paul says…
“All have turned aside;
together they have become worthless;
no one does good, not even one.”
The word “Worthless” in Greek means unprofitable, senseless laughter, or sour milk. And that, is exactly what we are, unprofitable, because we cannot function properly in relation to God. It is only the Cross that restores this. We do not earn our worth! There is nothing we can do or ever did to earn our worth!!
Lastly, you said the following…
“If man's worth is only in that Christ died on a cross, then those before the cross were of no value, which I can't believe.”
Are you saying that the Cross did not purchase the redemption of those who lived by faith before hand? If so… check your theology!
I think i finally see what you were trying get at as far as the quote by Dan M. The context, from what you posted says nothing about how it was love that Christ died, even while we were sinners. But i can see what you are getting at. People who think they themselves are the center rather than God Himself. From this quote(which is all the reference i had) it seems like he'd rather have someone think God sees no value at all in us (even as an individual) and we should be weeping at the end rather than joyful that God condesends Himself to even interact and be personally involved with us, that's all i was trying say about that.
"Are you saying that the Cross did not purchase the redemption of those who lived by faith before hand? If so… check your theology!"
Ok if you got that from what i wrote, i am sorry, for that ain't what I was saying at all. I was saying that if it's as you said people only have their worth because the cross applied it, then it leaves out people before the cross who's sins were atoned for by actual lambs that God allowed as a Holy Sacrifice in their place. I don't think their worth was dependant on that lamb, their forgiveness and reconcilation, yes, but we are talking about worth, or maybe you weren’t… I thought you were talking about a person’s worth, intrinsic value(which is what I think of when you say “innate self worth”) that's why it seemed to have struck a cord with me. I don't think Christ died because I think I’m worth it…I think Christ lived, died because He thought I, as well as you and anyone else, was worth it. That's what I was saying there. So, yes I believed that the blood of Christ redeemed those who went home before the cross. Christ said it like this, “Abraham saw my day coming and rejoiced!!” So even while sacrifices were being made, those who trusted (had faith in) God at His word, as even Abraham did, were saved by the redemptive work of God through His Sacrifice.
This is good dialogue Scott... It is good to see opposing views or perspectives as it relates to human worth. I think we all agree that the gospel is about Jesus and not about us, but I see a common disagreement about the value of mankind. (Coming from the definition of "total depravity").
My challenge to you Scott is.. can you make your same arguments if you never quote the writings of Paul. (I know this is only for fun because we need to look at all of scripture, but I often see those from a strong reformed background very "Paul-centric" and interpret much of scripture through the lens of Paul rather than interpreting Paul through the rest of scripture).
Of course you know I am just a liberal who actually believes there is good in humanity... but since the liberals (in politics) are going to unleash an ass-kicking tomorrow I will feel some liberties.
Hello everyone. Good conversation. Why was the life, death, and resurrection of Christ necessary. It was only necessary because man failed to fulfill the covenant that God set up for him in the first place, "Do this and you shall live, do this and you shall die." Christ had to fulfill the covenant because man could not. The wrath of God had to be poured out and since man could not atone Christ did. So we have the gospel, the good news, the only reason we need the good news is because of the bad news we are depraved in our very nature because of sin. If you don't love Romans 3 or want to find another source other than Paul than check Isaiah 59, an entire chapter dedicated to the unrighteousness of God's covenant people, and the prophetic need for God to redeem them because of their sin. Like Scott said the worth that we have because of God creating us in HIs image is tainted by our sin. That worth is restored to us only through the cross. When God the father sees us He sees his son. The very fact that we are in need of the Gospel shows us that our worth is tainted. Jesus' first miracle is a picture of this. He restores honor to a poor newlywed couple at their wedding party. He takes away their shame. He "untaints' them. Our worth is restored through Christ. Christ did not die because we were worth it. He died because of our sin to make us worth it.
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